Originally Posted by Vadosi
consider 2 facts. You were using wrong runes for phenix udyr, and why on earth you were running 9/21/0 as a jungler. 9 points in utility is way better because of movement speed/natural mobs buff duration. If you want to test phenix udyr pick more AS oriented runes and do not start with vamp scepter, as its gives more benefits to tiger udyr( this stance is ad based. phenix is magic damage).
And your conclusions are totally wrong they should go more in that habbit:
1) Phenix clears jungle faster then tiger even with setup for tiger.
2) Tiger udyr benefits more from vamp scepter.
3) Phenix > Tiger, because you can gank faster
4) Dont know how you are going to argument this conclusion. IMO its totally wrong.
5) Both stances have their + and -, but your test is not valid as you used build focused on Tiger stance.
I did a 2tests as well both for phenix:
Test one(forgot to take a ss after full clear + used ghost;p ): http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2913/phenixd.jpg
Second test: http://imageshack.us/g/528/screen02q.png/
0/21/9, AS red, Armour yellows, MR/lev blue, MS quints. Starting with Armour and 5 pots.
And his passive is still very good. With blue you should be able to keep it on tier 3 most of the time witch gives you free AS, so you can clear jungle faster.
Well, your points make sense but i believe they are a lil bit too much phoenix fanboy point of view.
About masteries: going 9 offence is a matter of personal preference, the 20% buff duration and mana regen can be very helpful in the early game but since udyr is a beast in the jungle anyway (can clear it without ever need to go back from the beginning if you buy a scythe) and the offensive mastery is arguably a better choice late game/outside from the jungle: 4% AS and 10% ArPen. Even if its not and my point is completly wrong, that doesnt change much in a matter of Tiger vs Phoenix, which is what we r discussing here. Maybe in a way, can only be helpful for Phoenix Udyr due to the AS you talked about a lot.
About Runes: both stances make the same use of CRD, Armor and Health. The only one that could make a difference is the ArPen Reds. They still benefith both from it but obv Tiger Udyr is gona benefit more, but i dont think there this huge difference, also becouse the 15 ArPen given its not gona be used to the fullest since most of the monsters in hte jungle have Armor < 7/8.
I just used my general AD setup rune page for both, i didnt do this optimized for tiger to trick people in believing that tiger is better, and i chose to not change it for the test purposes (same items, same route, all the same.)
About Items: ok again obv scythe is much better for tiger Udyr, but again, if d have used a different item setup we should be taking in consideration more factors, making the test harder to evaluate, armor + 5 pots its 500hp heal in bottle and more armor then scythe. I d say probably you would end up with more hps then with a scythe after you used all the pots, not sure, but still then you have to consider 2 things: you used 175 golds in potions and your lantern will be delayed by that amount of golds, also, after your pots are no more, you have no more sustain, forcing you to go back to buy more and spend more money (the only form of sustain would be turtle stance actually, but in not sure that would be enough, and even if, is gona delay your jungle speed by a lot so thats not a considerable option).
I would say: Since you can easly go for sustain jungle with Udyr with a scythe why wouldnt wanna do it and waste your money (and time to go back and buy more) to buy pots? And since Tiger Udyr is the stance that benefit more from this item, why wouldnt you gona go for it?
1) The only thing among masteries/runes/items that could have been speed up the process of jungling in Phoenix form would be As runes, by how much i have to guess? 5 seconds? The setup i used was not ment to be a Tiger focused setup, was just a generic AD setup i had.
Also without scythe you will be forced to go back after your pots are no more, and the recall time alone will burn those 10 seconds you gained with Phoenix to dont mention the time you ll need to get back to the jungle from the fountain. And what about ganks? Will you have time for those too since you have to recall?
One more thing: As we can see from the time, after a certain point Tiger allowed me to clear the last 2 camps faster then Phoenix. I was 12 secs behind at Red lizard, but only 10 at the end of the route, meaning i catched up by 2 seconds with those last 2 camps, which are the 2 camps with most monsters (wraiths and wolves) which is where Phoenix should shine more due to the better AoE dmg. We cant say that after a certain level tiger become faster for sure, but this is a good clue, more tests should be taken.
2) Tiger Udyr + Scythe works great. Why wouldnt you wanna take adavantage of that? Why you wanna waste 175 gold for pots and delay your Wriggle, when you can heal yourself more with schthe + Tiger (+300 HPs during the last 2 camps - that is 3 pots).
3) You can gank faster with Phoenix before level 4, and you will have the worse skill setup (low single target damage)
You will have less hps and every damage you take you ll have to spend money to heal you back.
Also by using the cloth5 setup, you ll be forced to recall, and so your ganks can be a lot less frequent due to your lower sustain.
More sustain = more ganks with more hps
4) Whats the use of a Phoenix Udyr in a teamfight? or fewer man fight situation (1v1 - 2v2 - 3v3 etc)? You will never manage to damage more then 2 at one time, unless they r so retarded to stack up each other, the only thing i can think Phoenix to be good outside from the jungle is to push waves of minions back faster.
5) Again there was nothing to make it Tiger focused, beside the ArPen Reds (which are still good for Phoenix too) i really doubt that using As runes instead would make that huge of a difference. Maybe will just give Phoenix a 5 seconds edge.
I didnt wanna write all these things in the OP to keep it as much simple and clear for the readers, without tedious in dept discussion, but as you can see, if we go in a more depth analisys, the is a lot to talk about and your point of view looks a lil bit too much on the Phoenix side